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-   -   How do UK nationals who own spanish homes get over the border? (https://www.forum.puertopollensa.com/miscellaneous/14699-how-do-uk-nationals-who-own-spanish-homes-get-over-border.html)

bobley 17-05-2021 13:42

How do UK nationals who own spanish homes get over the border?
 
(Ignoring Visas as I wont be staying more than 90 days)

I cant quite fathom this yet.

Basically now we're "out" and our freedom of movement has gone, we need to abide by Spanish immigration regs. I dont think there's anything in the Withdrawal agreement to cover this.

When you come over the border you need to say why you're there.

Business, Tourism, Resident etc.

I'm not resident so I dont have a TIE (thinking about applying but thats a sledgehammer solution ...).

I wont be travelling on a package holiday so no hotel booking forms to justify "tourism"

Nor will I have anything to show that I'm on genuine business.

So, if you're a tourist going to stay in someone elses house you need a letter of invitation (“Carta de Invitación”). Applied for by the home owner, €75 ish euros, about a month to apply...

Carta de invitación - Ministerio del Interior

So it appears I'll need to do these forms for any of my friends who use my house..

What about me though? Do I just turn up with my Nota Simple (or a lease contract). What about my partner our my children who would be travelling with me?

I guess someone on here will find out exactly what happens in the next few days...?

bobley 17-05-2021 13:52

I dont like the way they use the word "may" ....

Entry Requirements

(Google translation)

"At any event, entry may be refused (even with a valid passport and/or visa) at police checks in the following cases:

- Journeys undertaken for the purposes of tourism or for private reasons
In these cases, the presentation of any of the following documents may be required:
1. A supporting document from the establishment providing accommodation or a letter of invitation from a private individual if the foreigner concerned is staying in their home, issued by the Police Station corresponding to their place of residence.
IMPORTANT: Under no circumstances shall the letter of invitation replace the foreigner's accreditation of all other entry requirements.
2. Confirmation of the booking of an organised trip, indicating the itinerary.
3. A return or round-trip ticket.
In order to accredit economic means, the provisions of Order PRE/1282/2007, of 10 May, on economic means, will be taken into account, which foreigners will need to accredit to be able to come into Spain. The amount to be accredited must reach a daily sum of 10% of the gross minimum wage set at 950 euros pursuant to Royal Decree 23/2020, of 4 February, establishing the minimum wage for 2020, which has been extended to 2021"

I wonder if you just need to have your return ticket available to show??

fil6699 17-05-2021 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobley (Post 132591)
(Ignoring Visas as I wont be staying more than 90 days)

I cant quite fathom this yet.

Basically now we're "out" and our freedom of movement has gone, we need to abide by Spanish immigration regs. I dont think there's anything in the Withdrawal agreement to cover this.

When you come over the border you need to say why you're there.

Business, Tourism, Resident etc.

I'm not resident so I dont have a TIE (thinking about applying but thats a sledgehammer solution ...).

I wont be travelling on a package holiday so no hotel booking forms to justify "tourism"

Nor will I have anything to show that I'm on genuine business.

So, if you're a tourist going to stay in someone elses house you need a letter of invitation (“Carta de Invitación”). Applied for by the home owner, €75 ish euros, about a month to apply...

Carta de invitación - Ministerio del Interior

So it appears I'll need to do these forms for any of my friends who use my house..

What about me though? Do I just turn up with my Nota Simple (or a lease contract). What about my partner our my children who would be travelling with me?

I guess someone on here will find out exactly what happens in the next few days...?


I think once the border is open fully hopeful after the 30th May you can carry your NIE with you and also your en padramento( Proof you pay taxes for property etc ) from the town hall which you will have if you own a property this will allow you to visit your home but taking into count the 90 day rule.Passports are now inspected and stamped in and out so 90 day rule is controlled
then you will have no problem because you are visiting your second home , No need to over complicate it Brexit has already done that lol
As for people coming on Holiday to your house family etc they are simply tourists staying at your house

animagic21 17-05-2021 17:17

I confess I am totally ignorant about travelling to PP now we are out of the EU.
Normally we visit for a couple of weeks, 3 or 4 times a year. We do not own a property.
We hire a private apartment from Spanish or English homeowners in the Port. Once we stayed at the Sis Pins.
Will the only means of visiting PP now be to stay in a hotel or Villa owned by a holiday Company?
Thanks for any informationm.

lollipop 17-05-2021 18:44

I understood that the UK is exempt from this as have an agreement in place. From 2022 you will need to complete a visa waiver form ETIAS.

fil6699 17-05-2021 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by animagic21 (Post 132595)
I confess I am totally ignorant about travelling to PP now we are out of the EU.
Normally we visit for a couple of weeks, 3 or 4 times a year. We do not own a property.
We hire a private apartment from Spanish or English homeowners in the Port. Once we stayed at the Sis Pins.
Will the only means of visiting PP now be to stay in a hotel or Villa owned by a holiday Company?
Thanks for any informationm.


you will be able to holiday as you did before the only difference will be covid restrictions and passport control no more electric barriers have to have passport stamped in and out and max stay 90 days in a rolling 180 days . ALL Will be welcome soon

animagic21 17-05-2021 20:07

That is certainly reassuring. Thank you.

bobley 18-05-2021 08:36

It sounds like theres a concensus. I understand the visa and visa waiver but there's certainly nothing easy to find saying you can dodge the invitation letter but I'm sure there's something there because no ones talking about it. I think it's likely a thing going on between UK and spain post brexit rather than a feature of the withdrawal document...

Sparky 18-05-2021 13:32

Two people were refused entry in Palma yesterday, they are owners but not residents, so until June 1st the border is still closed to non residents.

Rockape 18-05-2021 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparky (Post 132607)
Two people were refused entry in Palma yesterday, they are owners but not residents, so until June 1st the border is still closed to non residents.

Not the least bit surprised to hear that, hence my comments a week ago that people in the UK are mostly blissfully unaware that Spain won't let them in.

mallorcaboy 18-05-2021 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparky (Post 132607)
Two people were refused entry in Palma yesterday, they are owners but not residents, so until June 1st the border is still closed to non residents.

Do we know if the border will definitely be open from 1st June?
How would we be notified?

Sparky 18-05-2021 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by mallorcaboy (Post 132611)
Do we know if the border will definitely be open from 1st June?
How would we be notified?

To be absolutely sure you need to check the official government websites :).

Remember that things are often changing on a daily basis ;).

mallorcaboy 18-05-2021 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparky (Post 132612)
To be absolutely sure you need to check the official government websites :).

Remember that things are often changing on a daily basis ;).

Do you mean UK government website or Spain’s?

Disorderly 18-05-2021 18:05

I think that the U.K. Government’s position is very clear. I know exactly what is required to re-enter the U.K. from an “Amber” country. What we are waiting for anxiously is the go ahead to actually legitimately arrive at Palma Airport and be allowed into the island. So many people (frankly how stupid can you be) can’t grasp the difference between U.K. and Spanish rules. I still hold out a little hope for our June flights, but try very hard not to get my hopes up. Already had too many disappointments. Who’d have thought that 2021 would actually be worse than last year?

Sparky 18-05-2021 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by mallorcaboy (Post 132613)
Do you mean UK government website or Spain’s?

Both now that the UK is out of the Eurozone ;).

fil6699 18-05-2021 22:19

SORRY the paste did not work see next post for official ruling on invitations and how you can visit if you are not in a hotel or package holiday its scary reading but its Brexit

The words careful what you wish for spring to mind

fil6699 18-05-2021 22:21

Sorry but here is the official information re Visiting Invitation it seems yes all will need who are non residents
𝗔𝗥𝗧𝗔 𝗗𝗘 𝗜𝗡𝗩𝗜𝗧𝗔𝗖𝗜Ó𝗡 – 𝗙𝗔𝗖𝗧𝗦 𝗙𝗢𝗥 𝗨𝗞 𝗡𝗔𝗧𝗜𝗢𝗡𝗔𝗟𝗦
Confirmed by the 𝗕𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗮𝗱𝗮 𝗱𝗲 𝗘𝘅𝘁𝗿𝗮𝗻𝗷𝗲𝗿í𝗮 𝘆 𝗙𝗿𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗮𝘀 in Granada and by Antequera National Police as well.
Like for all other nonEU nationals wishing to visit Spain and NOT lodging in paid holiday accommodation, but with friends or family instead, the host in Spain must apply for a 𝗖𝗮𝗿𝘁𝗮 𝗱𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝘃𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗰𝗶ó𝗻 for each person involved. 𝗢𝗝𝗢: 𝗢𝗡𝗟𝗬 𝗟𝗘𝗚𝗔𝗟 𝗥𝗘𝗦𝗜𝗗𝗘𝗡𝗧𝗦 in Spain can apply for this Carta for the family or friends they wish to receive in their own (or rented) home or a second home they own here, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗶𝗱𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗵𝗼𝗺𝗲 𝗼𝘄𝗻𝗲𝗿𝘀 𝗖𝗔𝗡 𝗡𝗢𝗧. The latter can only receive nonEU guests in their holiday home if the property is listed as a holiday rental with the Registro de Turismo and they charge for their stay and provide the guests with a tourist rental contract and confirmation of booking. For those who rent their home, please check that the rental contract doesn’t contain a clause that prohibits guests from lodging with you, or only allows so for very limited time in case they intend to stay for several weeks e.g.
The procedure is a 𝘁𝘄𝗼-𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗽 one. You need to apply for the Carta de Invitación with the National Police in your area, with a cita previa https://sede.administracionespublica...es/icpco/index
fill out this form for each guest http://www.interior.gob.es/.../Solicitud+de+Carta.../
And Modelo 790-12 to pay the administrative fee. Tick ‘solicitud carta de invitación’. The amount of 74,31 euros will appear. https://sede.policia.gob.es/Tasa790_012/ImpresoRellenar
𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗱𝗼𝗰𝘂𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁𝘀 𝘁𝗼 𝗯𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗴:
✼ Title deeds or rental contract for the property where the guests will be lodging
✻ Padrón certificate not older than 3 months
✼ TIE or green EU residency certificate and passport plus copies
✼ Copies of the passports of the guests that will travel from the UK to Spain to stay with you
There is no fixed window to process your application, it depends on how busy they are, but generally no more than 20 days. Once you have been notified that your application has been resolved favourably, you can pick up the the Carta(s) de Invitación. You’ll need a 𝘀𝗲𝗰𝗼𝗻𝗱 𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗺 𝟳𝟵𝟬-𝟭𝟮, tick ‘Expedición de Carta de Invitación’. No amount will appear, you need to print the form and put in the amount of 6,43 euros times number of guests. So for a family of five, 5 x 6,43 = 32,15. Note that these amounts vary each time the State General Budget for the following year is approved and published.
Once you have the Carta(s), you need to send them to the UK so that the guest can bring the originals with them when they travel to Spain.
It will no doubt take a bit of getting used to, but this has been in place for all nonEU nationals for many years. Although the GOV UK website doesn’t mention anything in their ‘travel to Spain’ section, the Carta de Invitación is in fact in place for UK Nationals when travelling to the EU for tourist purposes, when not staying in paid holiday accommodation. As said at the beginning of this article, confirmed by official sources.
Proceso automático para la solicitud de cita previa
sede.administracionespublicas.gob.es

BREXIT THE GIFT THAT KEEPS ON GIVING

bobley 18-05-2021 23:12

Yeah, thats the fairly worrying bit, but how do I get there? I believe you that I can rock up with my deeds etc..

I guess that...

I'll have to make a contract to rent my house to my parents/children etc for more than a month ?? (but that doesn't really abide by the rules above)

or I guess I'd fly out with them, get them through the border and turn round and come back?

I'll leave it for a bit I guess?

Gommar Goffer 19-05-2021 09:04

Does this mean that my daughter and son would need a letter if invitation to come a visit me from the UK?

fil6699 19-05-2021 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gommar Goffer (Post 132623)
Does this mean that my daughter and son would need a letter if invitation to come a visit me from the UK?

Yes it would seem so and can only be invited by resident it seems that anybody who is going to stay at your home madness , total madness :

bobley 19-05-2021 12:00

Eureka.

You rent out your spare room to a local couple for €100/month and then get them to invite you to your own house? Maybe they'd like to holiday in the UK while you're over there...

alcanadakid 19-05-2021 13:01

This is on the UK Gov website.

"The rules for travelling or working in European countries changed on 1 January 2021:

you can travel to countries in the Schengen area for up to 90 days in any 180-day period without a visa. This applies if you travel as a tourist, to visit family or friends, to attend business meetings, cultural or sports events, or for short-term studies or training
if you are travelling to Spain and other Schengen countries without a visa, make sure your whole visit is within the 90-day limit. Visits to Schengen countries within the previous 180 days before you travel count towards your 90 days"

Sparky 19-05-2021 13:40

It has been reported that Europe is to reopen its borders to fully vaccinated travellers :D,

Quote:

The conditions for vaccinated travelers to enter the EU is that they have received the complete vaccination schedule (two doses in most vaccines on the market) at least fourteen days before their trip, according to the consensus of the States. member at an ambassador-level meeting in Brussels.

The agreement must still be formalized at the level of ministers, probably this Thursday at a planned meeting of those responsible for Trade, and will enter into force as of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union.

fil6699 19-05-2021 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcanadakid (Post 132630)
This is on the UK Gov website.

"The rules for travelling or working in European countries changed on 1 January 2021:

you can travel to countries in the Schengen area for up to 90 days in any 180-day period without a visa. This applies if you travel as a tourist, to visit family or friends, to attend business meetings, cultural or sports events, or for short-term studies or training
if you are travelling to Spain and other Schengen countries without a visa, make sure your whole visit is within the 90-day limit. Visits to Schengen countries within the previous 180 days before you travel count towards your 90 days"

Sadly it is not up to the UK to determine rules of entry to another country the rules are set by the country concerned and at this time Spain is sticking to the invitation requirement if not staying in paid for legal accommodation ie Hotel or Holiday let with Licence .As it stands now only a resident can apply for an invitation for somebody to stay with them total madness. But this has been the situation for non eu for many years its just not been enforced as it looks like it could be now, This is what happens when you poke a bear

bobley 19-05-2021 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcanadakid (Post 132630)
This is on the UK Gov website.

" This applies if you travel as a tourist, to visit family or friends, to attend business meetings, cultural or sports events, or for short-term studies or training"

Yes, so when you arrive at the border, they ask why you're here, you say

"tourism" they say "please show me your accommodation details"

"to visit family or friends" and they say "thats nice, please show us you letter of invitation"

.....unlikely/maybe/probably... I don't know. Its a great way to kill off unlicensed holiday rentals, but it's also a real hurdle for UK owners of family holiday homes.

Bircho 19-05-2021 17:16

My understanding is that what is being referred to above is what you need to do when applying for a Schengen visa. Details are here:
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/sch...accommodation/

At the current time, UK has an agreed opt out of this regulation until September 2022 when it will come into force unless the UK and EU agree a mutual visa arrangement.

EDIT: Just to update a technicality. Schengen is not the EU but you get the jist!

fil6699 19-05-2021 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bircho (Post 132635)
My understanding is that what is being referred to above is what you need to do when applying for a Schengen visa. Details are here:
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/sch...accommodation/

At the current time, UK has an agreed opt out of this regulation until September 2022 when it will come into force unless the UK and EU agree a mutual visa arrangement.

:confused:
Hi can you show please where it says uk is exempt untill sept 2022 My Lawyers are currently looking into this situation as it will be a nightmare for so many people here

Bircho 19-05-2021 17:45

Here you go:
https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news...ct-uk-citizens

Bircho 19-05-2021 22:48

Just to supplement this, this is what Schengen also says:
Travel Documents and Entry Requirements for non-EU Nationals

Quote:

You will have to present several documents at the Schengen port of entry, in order to be permitted to enter, if you are a non-EU/Schengen country national, regardless if you are a visa-exempt or not.

The documents you need to provide when entering the Schengen Area are as follows:

Valid Passport. Issued within the previous 10 years and valid for at least 3 months after the date you intend to leave the EU.
Schengen Visa. If you are a national of one of the third countries in need of a visa.
EU/Schengen border officials may also ask for other information and documents such as sufficient funds, proof of accommodation, how long you intend to stay, round-trip airline ticket, the purpose of your entry, travel insurance, invitation letter, etc.

Please, make sure that the border officer gives you an entry stamp in your passport when you enter the Schengen area. Without a stamp, you could be fined or detained.

Until large groups start to enter there's no saying what else you will need as it does say may Thing is it is only until etias goes live in 2022.

Bootledodger 19-05-2021 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by fil6699 (Post 132633)
Sadly it is not up to the UK to determine rules of entry to another country the rules are set by the country concerned and at this time Spain is sticking to the invitation requirement if not staying in paid for legal accommodation ie Hotel or Holiday let with Licence .As it stands now only a resident can apply for an invitation for somebody to stay with them total madness. But this has been the situation for non eu for many years its just not been enforced as it looks like it could be now, This is what happens when you poke a bear

So therefore it isn't a "brexit" issue - it's a EU/Spanish issue. "Poke a bear"??? behave yourself.

JPALCOVER 20-05-2021 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bootledodger (Post 132639)
So therefore it isn't a "brexit" issue - it's a EU/Spanish issue. "Poke a bear"??? behave yourself.

Rather a "NON-EU / Spanish" issue

fil6699 20-05-2021 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bootledodger (Post 132639)
So therefore it isn't a "brexit" issue - it's a EU/Spanish issue. "Poke a bear"??? behave yourself.

If the UK was still in the EU this would not have append so yes I am afraid it is a Brexit Issue 100% and the Bear is the EU . :(

Tiggy 20-05-2021 08:45

An article in The Guardian also mentions this thorny subject ...headline reads

UK travellers to France may be asked proof of accommodation as part of post-Brexit changes.

Just for a bit of balance checked the The Daily Telegraph but no mention of the above yet

although they did write ....Liverpool are scoring goals and their centre-half is playing like a colossus. Jurgen Klopp must wish he could start this season again......:-)))))

bobley 20-05-2021 09:03

The regs say that if you can't prove the money/ accommodation issue then you can still enter if a you have a Visa, b have a residence card c, have an authorised return... I've no idea what c means...

Tiggy 20-05-2021 09:09

Booked return ticket..

In the 1980 s you could only buy charter flight which came with a voucher for two nights hostel accomodation to get around this bit of legislation.
Dan Air Gatwick to Ibiza 50 GBP return full luggage allowance and 3 course meal and a one year cardboard passport from the post office ....��

alcanadakid 20-05-2021 09:44

I suspect this is a "remainer" scare story.

The gov.uk website makes no mention of this and while the UK government doesn't make the EU rules this is their legal interpretion of them and would be open to litigation if it were wrong.

The airlines also make no mention of this and if it were true, then the cost of repatriating refused travellers would fall on them.

Immigration officials always have lots of rules that they could apply but don't, because there is a huge difference between "may" and "must".

Can we really believe that the two immigration officers at Palma would have the time to question everyone offloading from multiple flights when it is not in Spains economic interest to refuse entry?

Time will tell of course, but until then I will not be scared off.

bobley 20-05-2021 14:02

Its nothing to do with remainers, its just the facts... but just not all of them!

Its basically the Schengen system and the UK has a similar system. Just google UK immigration letter of invitation. It's exactly the same. There are lots of posts on tripadvisor asking the same questions but the ones I read were about Venezuelans coming to the UK.

This legislation has always been there but it didn't apply to us until now.

I did a bit more digging this morning and its certainly looking like you'd only need a letter of invitation if you arrived for a long stay and didn't have a return ticket.

Once ETIAS is running I'm fairly sure this will all disappear... but you'll end up filling out forms to regain your Visa exemption every couple of years...and I bet the forms are the same as those you'd do if you were applying for a ....Visa!

Hey ho. Vaccine 2 next Friday. Come on Spain!! get your rates down and get your vaccines up!

Saying that, although UK on the whole is doing okay the Indian variant is tearing its way through Bolton, Blackburn, bits of Nottingham, Bedford etc etc. Only take a couple of people to carry that into Spain after a false neg PCR, and Spain with almost no protection is in big trouble.

fil6699 20-05-2021 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcanadakid (Post 132646)
I suspect this is a "remainer" scare story.

The gov.uk website makes no mention of this and while the UK government doesn't make the EU rules this is their legal interpretion of them and would be open to litigation if it were wrong.

The airlines also make no mention of this and if it were true, then the cost of repatriating refused travellers would fall on them.

Immigration officials always have lots of rules that they could apply but don't, because there is a huge difference between "may" and "must".

Can we really believe that the two immigration officers at Palma would have the time to question everyone offloading from multiple flights when it is not in Spains economic interest to refuse entry?

Time will tell of course, but until then I will not be scared off.

nothing to do with remainers scare story its a fact and yes they are turning people away now at Palma . it would appear that there is an agreement in place between the. Eu and UK that neither will enforce this but after 2022 a visa similar to USA Esta will be required
Never under estimate the boarder force in Spain. They have many tourists form Europe visiting. So as much as they love the British pound it is not the only source of income remember this applies the whole of Europe Mallorca and PP is just a small corner. You will note that the UK government site has many negative results of Brexit missing, But this is not a post Brexit debate its for information so people as has happened just this week do not get turned back at Palma . On my flight to London 3 weeks ago 2 people were on the flight who had been refused entry

Tiggy 20-05-2021 16:41

Update from GOV.​UK for:

Spain travel advice
Change made:
Further information on Schengen border controls on arrival in Spain where passengers who meet entry requirements may be asked to demonstrate sufficient funds for their stay, present a return or onward ticket, and proof of accommodation (‘Entry requirements’ page)

Time updated:
4:23pm, 20 May 2021

Bircho 20-05-2021 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by fil6699 (Post 132659)
nothing to do with remainers scare story its a fact and yes they are turning people away now at Palma . it would appear that there is an agreement in place between the. Eu and UK that neither will enforce this but after 2022 a visa similar to USA Esta will be required
Never under estimate the boarder force in Spain. They have many tourists form Europe visiting. So as much as they love the British pound it is not the only source of income remember this applies the whole of Europe Mallorca and PP is just a small corner. You will note that the UK government site has many negative results of Brexit missing, But this is not a post Brexit debate its for information so people as has happened just this week do not get turned back at Palma . On my flight to London 3 weeks ago 2 people were on the flight who had been refused entry

The difference is at the moment you can only enter Spain from the UK for a number of specified reasons. From when this is lifted (in next few days?) then tourism will be allowed it will be then that we will see how much they are enforcing the requirments. When three planes with 200 people on each arriving within 5 minutes of each other, how they will deal with that will be seen.

However, as stated, it is only a short term issue until 2022 when the new scheme launches.


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