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-   -   Hacienda - Tax Inspectors (https://www.forum.puertopollensa.com/living-working-pollensa-area/10396-hacienda-tax-inspectors.html)

JMD40 16-07-2013 14:03

Hacienda - Tax Inspectors
 
:mad::confused:
I thought I should report a very concerning event this morning. It seems that Hacienda... or the local tax office... have inspectors operating in the area at the moment. Today they visited a private villa in the urbanisation El Vila and after identifying themselves to clients insisted on clients full co-operation or they would call the police!!
They wanted to see the clients invoice along with details of how they paid, where they found details of the property, amount of monies paid, length of stay etc.etc.
This has obvoiusly made clients furious that there privacy was interrupted and also placed doubts and concerns as to the legality of the house owners, myself and of course how much Pollensa really wants visitors if they are to be treated in this way by tax officers.
I did hear rumblings last week about this but I could not really believe it was true but it seems it is.
Surely this is not the way forward.

pollensafan 16-07-2013 14:29

I guess this follows on from the articles about trying to stop private rentals. Just shows how short sighted they are. If you stop private rentals in pp, where do they think all the people affected by it would stay. I've said it before concerning this subject. Nobody repeat nobody is going to tell me where I spend my money. If it comes down to a choice of just hotels or apartment complexes, then it's goodbye pp. We all know who is behind this fiasco, The hoteliers. All done under the cloak of so say renters not paying the correct tax. What they really want is it stopped so you have to stay in their hotels/apartments. Wake up you fools. If you think pp would survive on the income from just your commercial accommodation you are living in fantasy island. Rant over:mad:" Hacienda That "

Rob72 16-07-2013 16:00

Thats pretty scary stuff; we are coming out this weekend to the Iru appartments and dont fancy haveing the tax men knock on the door. Any tips on how we should deal with this in the unlikely event that we get a knock on the door?
On a much happier note, we cant wait to get back out there as this break has been a looong time coming.:) Its a real home from home experience for us.

lollipop 16-07-2013 17:12

Rob72,
I suspect that because of where you are renting you will be ok. They are clamping down on people who they think are not declaring income. Unfortunately there are a lot of people here who do not pay or complete tax forms and that includes some people who have lived here for a number of years.

Papillon 16-07-2013 18:07

There is always a dilemma about declaring income from renting an apartment, how do you declare an income when you are not supposed to be renting?
I would be happy to pay for an annual permit and declare tax but many of us are in this Catch 22 situation.

Tetley 16-07-2013 19:08

From the perspective of someone who only rents apartments when we stay in Pollensa and/or the Port I have been amazed in the past as to how much of the rental sector is operating in the "black economy". It is also amazing as to how many of the owners who are in this situation almost brag openly when you contact them to find availability and costs. I can say that the person from whom we rent at the moment is a Mallorquine, issues receipts and contracts and I know pays all her dues. She also has insurance on her properties so that IF an unfortunate incident arises and results in injury to her guests, she is fully covered and we wouldn't have it any other way. I wonder what happens to those guests "on the dark side" IF the worst happens? The laws are quite specific, just as they were when I was in moving freight around for many years if you want to play the game, you must hold to the rules (drivers hours, insurance etc). As a working man who has paid all his taxes, all his working life, tax evasion and there's no other way to put it, is a sore point and I apologise for a bit of a rant on the topic.

cumberland8 16-07-2013 20:39

I have been renting properties in the Port for nearly 30 years & always pay cash & I always will ,because at least I know there will be a property to stay at when I arrive & if there wasn't at least i would have only lost a small deposit.
This is the fastest rising crime in Europe where people pay huge sums for holiday rentals on a credit card only to find no such property exists & I know you get assurances from CC company's that you will be refunded but these things take a lot of your holiday time up.We met a couple in the Port last year who were hoodwinked, when they went to report it they found themselves no 12 to report same crime in Pollensa that week.
Also if you agree to pay the owner on arrival & the rental does not live up to expectations you can walk away which happened to us about 10 years ago the photos were wonderful,the villa filthy.
As the saying goes cash is king every time.

eleanor 16-07-2013 21:02

As someone with a property which I rent out I would like to state that all taxes are paid and we have full insurance to cover any eventuality. I believe this to be the norm with 99.9% of people who rent out their property. Certainly I haven't as yet met anyone who would even think about not having full insurance.

I do feel that there are two sides to the above arguments. Can I just say that no way would I accept payment on arrival. How would I be sure that the person renting would turn up? I have held my property at potential renters requests while they look for flights only never to hear from them again. How can I risk someone not turning up for the supposed holiday?

There is so much put forward from the renters point of view but frankly there are some pretty bad renters which leave owners having to pick up the pieces. For example footprints up the wall! A broken table, scorched worktop, filthy sofa covers etc etc. I even had curtains stolen one year!

I can hear people up in arms about my comments and shouting at the keyboard that they wouldn't do that - well some people don't have the respect for others property which you might. Likewise not all owners are tax dodgers operating with no insurance either!

eleanor 16-07-2013 21:16

Oh forgot to mention too that full signed contracts are given as well as receipts plus various ways to pay leading up to the stay. Names and numbers are given at first contact so any potential renter can check out with our cleaning agents if required as well as other local (Pollensa) references. This should give renters peace of mind plus we are in regular contact throughout. We treat this in a professional way as we would any business.

Deanscroft 17-07-2013 09:19

If you are fully legal you have nothing to fear!

eleanor 17-07-2013 09:45

People on holiday really can do without having a knock on the door and be intimidated by these people. It also implies a problem. We already have to warn about 'gas/electricity men' bogus cleaners etc.
I'm sure should it happen to a holidaymaker then they may think again before returning to PP or even Mallorca. Not good! :(

There is a thread 'Considering a first time holiday in PP' the thought of knocks on the door, pickpockets, plus various other rip offs may all come into this consideration. I just hope the many positive things PP has to offer out weigh all of this. Ok it happens everywhere I know but it would be good to know the powers that be are working with bringing people to PP and not actively against. There are other ways to catch those being naughty without upsetting someones holiday.

pollensafan 18-07-2013 08:22

As I said earlier, this is all smoke and mirrors. You only need to research the history of what kicked this off. The big guns in the hotel industry don't want private renting. If every man and his dog paid their dues from tomorrow it would change nothing. They would then find some other point to latch onto. Come on folks wake up. When nearly all the holidays were taken as packages as 99% of us did they couldn't have cared less. Now the independent holiday maker has exploded in numbers they don't like it. They are only interested in boosting their own bank balances. They don't care about local business or the community or they would not be pushing all inclusive's at every opportunity. If that isn't designed to put surrounding restaurants out of business then tell me what is.:mad:
I'm off now to lie down in a dark room with a damp towel on my head :)

pollensafan 18-07-2013 08:29

Eleanore, Re private renters,,,,,,
I can imagine there must be some nightmare stories. I rent 3 times a year now and all I can say is my moto is simple. When the time comes for me to leave, I go in every room and I then ask myself one question.
" Would I know that anyone had stayed here"? As long as I can answer " No " then my job is done:)

eleanor 18-07-2013 09:59

Pollensafan - how I wish all had the same attitude as you. Brilliant! :)

rainbow 18-07-2013 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by eleanor (Post 86342)
People on holiday really can do without having a knock on the door and be intimidated by these people. It also implies a problem. We already have to warn about 'gas/electricity men' bogus cleaners etc.

Just a thought - if you warn people about bogus cleaners etc, why dont you warn them about these inspectors?? They may feel less intimidated.

eleanor 18-07-2013 12:47

They have now been added to the list! The fact is that any holiday maker just doesn't need any aggro. I'm sure many scams are worldwide but all that is important to a holiday maker is their holiday and where they are going and what is happening to them and now.

I think it can be very off putting to be provided with a list of things to be aware. Of course knowledge is power but there is a slim line between being informed and them just thinking to heck with this we will go elsewhere.

mike_dublin 18-07-2013 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by eleanor (Post 86405)
I think it can be very off putting to be provided with a list of things to be aware. Of course knowledge is power but there is a slim line between being informed and them just thinking to heck with this we will go elsewhere.

I'm sure it can be off putting, but as a renter I'd be grateful for the warning.
Not everyone's reading the forum. ;)

It's unfortunate, that there's a lot of scammers* around looking to relieve people in holiday mode and unfamiliar with local circumstances of their hard earned money.

*the genuine tax inspectors (probably?) don't fall into that category

Tetley 18-07-2013 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deanscroft (Post 86340)
If you are fully legal you have nothing to fear!

Surely, people realise that genuine tax authorities already know which rental properties are being marketed and run legally, not least because they have access to the advertising as well as utility companies records to check usage.As Deanscroft says, only the guilty need worry. Pollesafan, you are just like my wife, the place HAS to be left in excellent order, anything less is not acceptable.

Deanscroft 18-07-2013 14:25

Iīm wondering if we are combining two completely separate things here. One is the legality of renting particularly in view of the provisions of the new law passed last year which I think Pollencafan is probably right in saying was brought in purely at the request of and for the benefit of the hoteliers. I would be very surprised to see any determined campaign to apply this as so many local businesses depend on the private rental market. As long as owners are a bit sensible in the way they operate and donīt be to blatent about it then I would doubt that there will be a problem.
The second thing is the requirement to pay tax. By owners needing to be sensible this is what I mean. Everyone who owns a property in Spain and doesnīt live in it is required to pay income tax on that property whether or not it is rented out. Anyone who actively avoids paying this tax be it by ignorance or desire is asking for trouble and quite frankly deserves it when it arrives.

pollensafan 18-07-2013 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetley (Post 86415)
Surely, people realise that genuine tax authorities already know which rental properties are being marketed and run legally, not least because they have access to the advertising as well as utility companies records to check usage.As Deanscroft says, only the guilty need worry. Pollesafan, you are just like my wife, the place HAS to be left in excellent order, anything less is not acceptable.

Tetley, I have always been like that. If someone is gracious enough to let you into their home, you have an obligation to treat it with the utmost respect. Last time I was out there the owner had put a brand new throw over their sofa. I refused to sit on it for the duration of my stay as I didn't want to crease it.. How sad is that lol:)

majprop 18-07-2013 19:05

Personaly I would have telephoned the Guardia Civil/Hacienda and checked that these "Inspectors" are who they say they are, I would also have read their I.D.'s very closely, clearly this can only be done if you are legal but my point here is that even if they are real inspectors there must be a civil rights issue here...

copper 18-07-2013 19:18

Do they have the right to do that just demand to come in and see your confidential paperwork ?? Very few people would have enough Spanish to check all this identity

sunnyboy 18-07-2013 21:18

They do have the right and they will be able to speak English. If everything is legal and above board there is nothing to fear.

copper 18-07-2013 21:57

I am just speaking as a guest if I was staying in someones apartment not as an owner

I think it would be rather intimidating for this to happen

cumberland8 19-07-2013 16:58

I'm afraid Sunny is correct they can do whatever they like ,:eek::eek::eek:you must check their pass & once verified it is in your interest to be as cooperative as possible otherwise they can waste an awful lot of your holiday time .
It is very unusual for there to be less than 3 inspectors (for obvious reasons) & yes one will speak English.

James 19-07-2013 23:57

From today's Bulletin:-

Crackdown launched on illegal holiday home rentals

Majorca Daily Bulletin, Espaņa 19 Jul 2013

Palma.— The Balearic local ministry for tourism has launched a massive crackdown on illegal holiday homes in the Balearics.

Government inspectors have been scanning website where holiday accommodation is offered and also probing reports of homes which are being offered to tourists illegally.

To rent out a property, the owner must first get the necessary paperwork from the Balearic Ministrry for tourism. In many cases owners just go ahead and rent their homes illegally much to the anger of local hoteliers who say it is unfair competition.

Papillon 20-07-2013 07:22

What the article doesn't say is that many owners have tried to obtain permits to rent only to find they are no longer issuing them.Once again pressure from elsewhere has caused this ridiculous situation.
How the property market will ever recover when possible purchasers are denied the right to help improve the local economy is beyond me.
Those that are lucky enough to have a permit need to realise that those of us that don't are put in an impossible position and wish to see a satisfactory resolution that benefits all, not just the hoteliers.

alcanadakid 20-07-2013 08:22

Personally, I would ask to take a photo of them. If they are genuine then they wouldn't mind. That used to scare away the bogus callers previously.

It would be interesting to know if they have a right of entry. In the UK anyone like this would need to have a warrant granted by a magistrate, and they would need to produce it before entry. I would imagine Spanish law is similar.

JMD40 20-07-2013 08:35

According to my clients they were very heavy handed. They did not speak English. I think at the very least they should have a printed form written in several languages which explains what they are doing and apologises for the inconveninece. Tax Office has a right to answers. They do not necessarily want to enter the property but they were very clear they wanted all their questions answered or the police were going to be called. They wanted to know where the property was found, how much was paid, had they been to the property before, did the price include electric, gas, how the cleints paid, number of bank account which was used if bank transfer. etc. etc.
It certainly annoyed my clients by their attitude, annoyed my clients by the intrusion of privacy and also made the clients think that the owners were maybe avoiding paying tax. They did have the name of the owners on their records.
Tourism inspectors are one body, tax inspectors are another so potentially we could expect two inspectors knocking on doors. This villa was off the beaten track.
HAVE FUN ALL. ANOTHER HOT ONE.

eleanor 26-07-2013 16:55

Following on from Jan's post I am a little surprised that this thread doesn't seem to have hit a nerve with property owners. This last week has apparently seen these inspectors out and about and just knocking on doors. This is very serious stuff and should not be taken lightly. From information gained it seems that it is illegal for apartments to operate a rental service and also villas need to have a tourist licence. From this same information it seems that these licences are hard to obtain and will not be given to apartments. Therefore anyone renting without a licence is open to heavy fines. It seems that you can rent under the short term tenancy act 1994 but you are unable to offer any service. Andrew has been brillliant in supplying relevant info and if you google you will find all the relevant info from various sources. The inspectors have been gaining much of their info from rental websites. If you are offering short term rental then thses sites will not work with the short term tenancy agreement. To be on a site confirms that you offer a tourist agreement. These inspectors are doing the rounds and have been seen throughout the Port.
There is much to say about this subject but one thing which hasn't been spoken about is the knock on effect of all of this. This is serious stuff and will hit all of us property owners. Just think how many properties there are on the market at the moment. The success of PP was built on mostly the British buying in with the view to rent their property out to others wishing to share the wonderful place it is. If those property owners have mortgages which just a few years ago were being given away, they may well need the rental revenue to help pay for those mortgages. Ok it could be argued that a property should not have been purchased on that basis but the fact remains that many were. So these people will have seeen the value of their property decrease and now they are unable to rent too. It might just be easier to walk away. Will Pollensa then become like some areas of the mainland with property not being maintained and possibly just left! The bombs gone off and no one told us!
Also where will this leave business? Many have moved to Mallorca and built a business based on the rental market and property ownership. Again some might not maintain their homes bacause if the lack of money. Cleaning staff, rental agents and maintenance won't be needed as property can not be let out so they will see their business go bye bye. Plus restaurants and other associated holiday associated business. Holiday rental sites too will suffer as if a renter is not allowed to rent or be on a rental site then there will be no need for them. It could be argued that it is a human right to do as you wish with your property and the question has been who and when will this be challenged in court.

The knock on of this is just crazy! None of us who love PP should have a smile on our faces as we will all be hit by this in my opinion. Plus of course how much will our property be worth if this is not challenged? I really feel this is a worry to all whether you rent with or without a licence! Do we want PP to become tired and run down? of course we don't - what the heck can we do about this? :confused:

JMD40 09-10-2013 07:50

Excellent Eleonor,
This is exactly the picture that I am seeing if these threats continue.Puerto Pollensa could become a ghost town with very many abandoned properties. Those people living in communities will have massive problems as people will stop paying the community fees resulting in lack of communal services such as lifts, pool cleaning, garden maintenence etc. or increased fees for those clients living in the building.
I can report that the inspectors returned to the same villa in El Vila just 2 weeks ago and requested all the same information from my clients.
These clients said they were very pleasant and did speak English. I have a copy of the form that was completed for Hacienda requesting how much was paid and where the money was paid, whether electric or gas was included in the rental charge, whether they had been to the property before and where they found the property advertised.
Regarding the rental of apartments, it all seems to have gone quiet at the moment which is sometimes more worrying.

Papillon 10-10-2013 07:29

I think apartment owners are just holding their breath at the moment hoping it will all go away and that this is not the lull before the storm.
What I don't understand is the focus on this villa, as the only obstacle to being legal is the reluctance to issue a permit to a property that seems to qualify.
Most apartments unfortunately are not in this position.

Deanscroft 10-10-2013 17:28

I would guess that the authorities here are treating this in the same way as they treat foreign registered cars ie. they first go after the ones that will generate the most revenue.

Belladonna 11-10-2013 09:39

A little more background by Andrew today;

alcudiapollensa: Holiday Rentals: Now they go international

Sparky 14-11-2013 21:05

This has been posted on FB by Andrew Ede.

Quote:

Residential tourism (aka also holiday lets and private apartments for tourist rental) ... Kate Mentink for Europeos por Espaņa has confirmed that a debate on this will take place on 10 December at the Club Diario de Mallorca (at the Diario's building on the Llevant industrial estate in Palma) between 6.30pm and 8.00pm. I shall be taking part. The director-general of tourism for the Balearics, Jaime Martinez, will also be participating, as will Alvaro Middelmann, ex-president of the Mallorca Tourist Board. Hopefully, it should be enlightening. By the way, it will be in English. Please ask Kate for any more details.

andrew711 20-11-2013 20:17

Just a bit more on this. Kate has asked that for this Europeos por Espaņa event, in order for them to get an idea of numbers, could anyone planning on attending advise them at EporE.baleares@gmail.com. Thanks.

Mark 12-12-2013 10:42

Another good article on the Alcudia Pollensa blog on Wednesday.

alcudiapollensa: An Evening Down The Club: Holiday rentals

Doesn't look like anything was achieved..... :rolleyes:

eleanor 14-12-2013 13:11

Yet another piece of excellent writing from Andrew. Thanks for attending the meeting Andrew and reporting back. If this wasn't sucha serious matter it would be laughable! I really believe Spain must be on it's own death wish!

So as Mark says - nothing has changed and next year will see a challenge to beat Big Brother!

And today a wishy washy piece of reporting in the Mail

Brits with holiday homes in Spain and France may be banned from renting them out to tourists | Mail Online

andrew711 16-12-2013 14:54

Pretty sure the Mail's got this wrong as it is referring to legislation (that through the reform of the tenancy act) that has already been passed.

Sparky 16-12-2013 15:00

That's what i thought Andrew ;).


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